tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-15388492.post4348691446471560972..comments2024-03-27T20:28:38.015-04:00Comments on Reasonable Christian: Law/Gospel and the Two Kingdoms: Paganism, Democracy, and the Separation of Church and StateCharlie J. Rayhttp://www.blogger.com/profile/18185331029930925967noreply@blogger.comBlogger21125tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-15388492.post-84492643382200293242013-02-08T18:39:36.782-05:002013-02-08T18:39:36.782-05:00Jack, revisionism is never right no matter how man...Jack, revisionism is never right no matter how many "modern" Calvinists agree with it. I have said nothing that is not plainly revealed in the Westminster Standards. The only way to come up with this re-interpretation of Luther's 2K view is to read the American political system back into Luther and the Calvinists. <br /><br />I totally disagree with the theonomists but from what Charlie J. Rayhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/18185331029930925967noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-15388492.post-26885590425503738052013-02-08T14:49:21.998-05:002013-02-08T14:49:21.998-05:00At this rate, Charlie, you will end up in a church...At this rate, Charlie, you will end up in a church of one... You need to learn to dial it down, my brother.Jack Millerhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/18281378425270530573noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-15388492.post-11035724520835873932013-02-08T13:53:40.277-05:002013-02-08T13:53:40.277-05:00My advice is that "all sins" should be s...My advice is that "all sins" should be spoken against? I never said that and it would be logically impossible since I am not omniscient. But what I did say is that the sinful actions of nations and governments are fair game for the pulpit. When the Nazis committed genocide I can stand in the pulpit and call it evil on the basis of the moral law.<br /><br />When the USA endorses Charlie J. Rayhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/18185331029930925967noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-15388492.post-40397695843342100812013-02-08T13:50:06.086-05:002013-02-08T13:50:06.086-05:00Since Van Tilians have no obligation to keep doctr...Since Van Tilians have no obligation to keep doctrine logical and consistent, I should be the one asking you why you keep asking me when I stopped beating my dog? After all, it is prying into the secret being of God to seek to be rational and logical in one's theology and arguments.Charlie J. Rayhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/18185331029930925967noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-15388492.post-24273303679999955952013-02-08T13:47:21.138-05:002013-02-08T13:47:21.138-05:00Making empty assertions without details or definit...Making empty assertions without details or definitions is to commit the fallacy of overgeneralization. The 2K view begs the question by assuming positions that were never taken by Scripture or the magisterial Reformers. In short, it's revisionism as much as theonomy is revisionism.Charlie J. Rayhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/18185331029930925967noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-15388492.post-89333367847322159832013-02-08T13:45:15.257-05:002013-02-08T13:45:15.257-05:00It's always the tactic of those who refuse to ...It's always the tactic of those who refuse to answer criticism to respond with generalizations like, "You don't understand." Mormons use that same tactic.Charlie J. Rayhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/18185331029930925967noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-15388492.post-5712212918340285492013-02-08T13:43:27.171-05:002013-02-08T13:43:27.171-05:00I'm not the one issuing unbiblical "laws&...I'm not the one issuing unbiblical "laws" like, "Thou shalt not interfere with the state." The Bible clearly says that the church ought to obey God rather than man. Also, the magisterial Reformers, including Luther, did not endorse separation of church and state. That's a principle of modern democracy, not Luther's two kingdoms. Luther most definitely advocatedCharlie J. Rayhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/18185331029930925967noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-15388492.post-42520430510163412832013-02-08T13:21:06.977-05:002013-02-08T13:21:06.977-05:00As I said before, you do not understand 2K theolog...As I said before, you do not understand 2K theology as taught at WSC. You argue against an inaccurate and distorted caricature of it. You might want to consider becoming a little less righteous in your arguments and do a little more homework.Jack Millerhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/18281378425270530573noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-15388492.post-86493458697344786872013-02-08T13:13:57.146-05:002013-02-08T13:13:57.146-05:00Charlie,
I started to respond to your first comme...Charlie,<br /><br />I started to respond to your first comment to me then stopped. You waste virtual ink arguing against your assumption of positions I do not hold. Rather than engage my points rationally you do what you seem wont to do, you assign ridiculous conclusions to what I wrote and ascribe erroneous and offensive positions to me. You seem unable to view a difference of doctrine with Jack Millerhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/18281378425270530573noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-15388492.post-7191535748336249212013-02-08T13:01:55.464-05:002013-02-08T13:01:55.464-05:00It is the responsibility of the church to be the m...It is the responsibility of the church to be the moral conscience of the country in which it resides. If the church will not stand against liberal religion, gay rights, and evil in general, then it is essentially preaching liberal Christianity that stands for nothing and cowers in a corner. In preaching the law it should also preach the Gospel, not pelagianism or social gospel.Charlie J. Rayhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/18185331029930925967noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-15388492.post-19953777676628441792013-02-08T12:59:56.261-05:002013-02-08T12:59:56.261-05:00I should say that the Westminster view of 2k is ba...I should say that the Westminster view of 2k is based on modern democracy and separation of church and state. I suppose by that standard persecuted Christians and churches in Islamic or Buddhist nations should not work toward religious freedom?<br /><br />William Wilberforce should just work by himself and hope he can overturn the slave trade? <br /><br />As wrong as the postmillennial, Charlie J. Rayhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/18185331029930925967noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-15388492.post-15347627538779135332013-02-08T12:55:19.778-05:002013-02-08T12:55:19.778-05:00Jack, the 2k view is based on the American politic...Jack, the 2k view is based on the American political system. It's blatantly a political view read into the text of Scripture. The magisterial Reformers knew nothing about theonomy and reconstruction. Likewise, they knew nothing about the American political system. It's fairly easy to demonstrate that Luther's 2 Kingdom model had nothing to do with separation of church and state-Charlie J. Rayhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/18185331029930925967noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-15388492.post-75741985931922521042013-02-08T12:48:45.028-05:002013-02-08T12:48:45.028-05:00The church is not able to save anyone or transform...The church is not able to save anyone or transform any nation. But it is called to preach the Word. Refusing to condemn sin in the world is to neglect that duty to preach the moral law against individuals and nations. Nations do sin because they break God's law. They promote evil as corporate bodies and they will be judged just as individuals will be judged. That's Bible, not Charlie J. Rayhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/18185331029930925967noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-15388492.post-84802922154957271252013-02-08T12:39:31.314-05:002013-02-08T12:39:31.314-05:00It's becoming apparent to me that 2K is as bad...It's becoming apparent to me that 2K is as bad as theonomy, especially since Luther's view of 2K did not mean modern democracy but rather an enforcement of the decalogue as the means of keeping peace in society. The secular realm, in other words, had an obligation to prevent gross immorality and vice. Luther didn't live in an American democracy.Charlie J. Rayhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/18185331029930925967noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-15388492.post-72759759122969911342013-02-08T12:37:18.610-05:002013-02-08T12:37:18.610-05:00Where do we see the NT affirming challenging the s...Where do we see the NT affirming challenging the state? I can give you many inductive proof texts:<br /><br /> Then the high priest rose up, and all those who were with him (which is the sect of the Sadducees), and they were filled with indignation, 18 and laid their hands on the apostles and put them in the common prison. 19 But at night an angel of the Lord opened the prison doors and brought Charlie J. Rayhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/18185331029930925967noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-15388492.post-19083404143930659922013-02-08T12:29:23.135-05:002013-02-08T12:29:23.135-05:00Jack, so nations are not to be judged by God today...Jack, so nations are not to be judged by God today simply because there is no longer a theocratic nation on earth but only the universal church? That's not in the Bible. The Scriptures clearly say that God does judge nations and that is a universally applicable proposition. By your judgment then, Hitler and Germany did nothing wrong by committing genocide. Rwanda and other nations didn&#Charlie J. Rayhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/18185331029930925967noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-15388492.post-45722277276018802842013-02-08T11:33:46.945-05:002013-02-08T11:33:46.945-05:00I think so. I'll have to check. Thanks for t...I think so. I'll have to check. Thanks for the reminder.... I've been busy lately with a teacher certification program.Charlie J. Rayhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/18185331029930925967noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-15388492.post-38451463419677683102013-02-08T08:48:01.358-05:002013-02-08T08:48:01.358-05:00Charlie, do you still follow "Anglicans in th...Charlie, do you still follow "Anglicans in the Wilderness" on Facebook? We're talking about this article in case you want to participate.Hudsonhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/05511526445868840330noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-15388492.post-32833763440509948152013-02-07T18:09:19.817-05:002013-02-07T18:09:19.817-05:00Sorry, brothers... I have to disagree with Hudson&...Sorry, brothers... I have to disagree with Hudson's amen. Charlie, I don't think you understand 2K theology. Have you read VanDrunen's two books on the topic? As to the idea that nations sin just like individuals... no. Only individuals sin. Israel is not an apt precedent or example. Israel was God's own special called out son (God's church in the O.T.), His corporate Jack Millerhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/18281378425270530573noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-15388492.post-26088515849287604532013-02-06T13:45:00.025-05:002013-02-06T13:45:00.025-05:00Thank-you, Hudson. God's peace.Thank-you, Hudson. God's peace. Charlie J. Rayhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/18185331029930925967noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-15388492.post-60299758346811509442013-02-06T13:18:03.434-05:002013-02-06T13:18:03.434-05:00Excellent article. As Reformed Anglicans we shoul...Excellent article. As Reformed Anglicans we should insist on replacing the prayer "Lord, save the state" with "Lord, humble and preserve our nation". The churches need to remove all gratuitous approval of our government and of our culture.Hudsonhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/05511526445868840330noreply@blogger.com