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Martyred for the Gospel

Martyred for the Gospel
The burning of Tharchbishop of Cant. D. Tho. Cranmer in the town dich at Oxford, with his hand first thrust into the fyre, wherwith he subscribed before. [Click on the picture to see Cranmer's last words.]

Collect of the Day

The Fifth Sunday after the Epiphany.
The Collect.

O LORD, we beseech thee to keep thy Church and household continually in thy true religion; that they who do lean only upon the hope of thy heavenly grace may evermore be defended by thy mighty power; through Jesus Christ our Lord. Amen.

Daily Bible Verse

Monday, September 28, 2009

Dissimulation, revisionism, and equivocation..... Comments made at VirtueOnline



On 23/09/2009 15:10, "Charlie J. Ray" <cranmer1959@gmail.com> wrote:

Re: Classical Anglicanism and the Real Presence of  Christ...
The theological errors committed in this piece are too  numerous to answer in a mere comment at the end of the page. However, for  starters Article 29 clearly forbids any idea of real presence in, with, or  under the elements. In other words, the bread and wine are not  consubstantially the body and blood of Christ as this author mistakenly  asserts.

Second of all, Calvin does not assert what the author  asserts that he asserted. In fact, anyone reading the introductory remarks  of Calvin in the Institutes on the topic will note immediately that Calvin  views the reception to be by faith, i.e. "in" the believer and NOT in the  elements:
"First, we must attend to what a sacrament is. It seems  to me, then, a simple and appropriate definition to say, that it is an  external sign, by which the Lord seals on our consciences his promises of  good-will toward us, in order to sustain the weakness of our faith, and we  in our turn testify our piety towards him, both before himself, and before  angels as well as men. We may also define more briefly by calling it a  testimony of the divine favour toward us, confirmed by an external sign,  with a corresponding attestation of our faith towards Him."

Calvin,  J., & Beveridge, H. (1996). Institutes of the Christian religion  (electronic ed.) (IV, xiv, 1). Oak Harbor, WA: Logos Research  Systems.

A sacrament, according to Calvin, is a matter of attesting  our faith towards God and it is an external sign that "seals on our  CONSCIENCES" and sustains "the weakness of our faith." How in the world  someone can twist this around to support "real presence" as  Anglo-Catholics and others contend is beyond me!

Calvin further  particularizes his view as a "spiritual eating" and which is very similar  to Cranmer's Zwinglian view:

"The sum is, that the flesh and blood  of Christ feed our souls just as bread and wine maintain and support our  corporeal life. For there would be no aptitude in the sign, did not our  souls find their nourishment in Christ. This could not be, did not Christ  truly form one with us, and refresh us by the eating of his flesh, and the  drinking of his blood. But though it seems an incredible thing that the  flesh of Christ, while at such a distance from us in respect of place,  should be food to us, let us remember how far the secret virtue of the  Holy Spirit surpasses all our conceptions, and how foolish it is to wish  to measure its immensity by our feeble capacity. Therefore, what our mind  does not comprehend let faith conceive—viz. that the Spirit truly unites  things separated by space. That sacred communion of flesh and blood by  which Christ transfuses his life into us, just as if it penetrated our  bones and marrow, he testifies and seals in the Supper, and that not by  presenting a vain or empty sign, but by there exerting an efficacy of the  Spirit by which he fulfils what he promises. And truly the thing there  signified he exhibits and offers to all who sit down at that spiritual  feast, although it is beneficially received by believers only who receive  this great benefit with true faith and heartfelt gratitude."


Calvin,  J., & Beveridge, H. (1996). Institutes of the Christian religion  (electronic ed.) (IV, xvii, 10). Oak Harbor, WA: Logos Research  Systems.

Furthermore, the position of the Articles and the 1662  Prayer Book is not one of real presence in the elements themselves but  rather the Zwinglian view which our friend above misunderstands as a  "empty" sign. The sign is only "empty" if one does not have real faith, as  Calvin states above. It is only beneficial to those who have genuine  faith. But Calvin says it is not mere faith in Christ and merely an  external sign but it is a faith that spiritually feeds upon the virtual  body and blood of Christ, which the bread and wine "signify".

Cranmer himself is even more direct:

"But let all these  papists together show any one authority, either of Scripture, or of  ancient author, either Greek or Latin, that saith as they say, that Christ  called not bread and wine his body and blood, but individuum vagum; for my  part I shall give them place, and confess that they say  true."


"And if they can show nothing for them of antiquity, but  only their own bare words, then it is reason that they give place to the  truth confirmed by so many authorities, both of Scripture and of ancient  writers, which is, that Christ called very material bread his body, and  very wine made of grapes his blood."


"Now this being fully  proved, it must needs follow consequently, that this manner of speaking is  a figurative speech: for in plain and proper speech it is not true to say,  that bread is Christ's body, or wine his blood. For Christ's body hath a  soul, life, sense, and reason: but bread hath neither soul, life, sense,  nor reason."


"Likewise in plain speech it is not true, that we  eat Christ's body, and drink his blood. For eating and drinking, in their  proper and usual signification, is with the tongue, teeth, and lips to  swallow, divide, and chaw in pieces: which thing to do to the flesh and  blood of Christ, is horrible to be heard of any Christian."


"So  that these speeches, "To eat Christ's body," "and drink his blood," "To  call bread his body," "or wine his blood," be speeches not taken in the  proper signification of every word, but by translation of these words,  "eating" and "drinking," from the signification of a corporal thing to  signify a spiritual thing; and by calling a thing that signifieth, by the  name of the thing which is signified thereby: which is no rare nor strange  thing, but an usual manner and phrase in common  speech."


[Archbishop Thomas Cranmer. A Defense of the True and  Catholic Doctrine of the Sacrament of the Body and Blood of Our Saviour  Christ. (East Essex: Focus Ministries Trust, 1987).  Reprint.



I might add that the Declaration of Principles of  the REC do likewise condemn ANY real presence IN the bread or wine,  WHATSOEVER. Anyone reading the historical documents of the REC at  "objective" historical websites can see this plainly. The trouble is the  REC has sold out to the Anglo-Catholics and have now adopted the  postmodern revisionism hermeneutic to make their own Declaration of  Principles say what they PLAINLY DO NOT SAY! It is this sort of dishonesty  that eventually leads to saying homosexuality is a "gift" of God rather  than a curse of the sinful nature!

How long will it be before the  REC and the ACNA start to question the immorality of homosexuality? How  long before they begin to endorse what they now oppose? I give it maybe 30  years at most. Before long the ACNA and TEC will be one again. They will  be asking each other why there was a split?

The fact of the matter  is this: when ministers and theologians have to lie and dissimulate to  justify a doctrine (real presence) it will not be long before that same  approach is applied to other issues, including Scriptural authority on  justification by faith alone. All of this, I would contend, leads  inevitably to the precipice of theological relativism and  compromise.

It truly is amazing how often the author refers to  secondary sources or makes empty assertions about Zwingli, Calvin, and  Cranmer without giving any references to firsthand or original sources at  all.

This sort of dishonesty is why I am no longer a minister with  the REC!

Sincerely yours in Christ,

Charlie

   <http://www.virtueonline.org/portal/modules/news/comment_edit.php?com_itemid=11186&com_order=0&com_mode=flat&com_id=111728> <http://www.virtueonline.org/portal/modules/news/comment_reply.php?com_itemid=11186&com_order=0&com_mode=flat&com_id=111728>
 cranmer59 <http://www.virtueonline.org/portal/userinfo.php?uid=7711>   Posted: 2009/9/23  11:55  Updated: 2009/9/23  11:55

   Not too shy to talk

 Joined:  2008/12/1
 From:  Casselberry, Florida
 Posts:  39

   Re:  Classical Anglicanism and the Real Presence of Christ...
 In another place Cranmer says:


"By these  words of Cyril appeareth his mind plainly, that we may not grossly and  rudely think of the eating of Christ with our mouths, but with our faith,  by which eating, although he be absent hence bodily, and be in the eternal  life and glory with his Father, yet we be made partakers of his nature, to  be immortal, and have eternal life and glory with him.

"And thus is  declared the mind as well of Cyril as of Hilarius.

"And here may be  well enough passed over Basilius, Gregorius Nyssenus, and Gregorius  Nazianzenus, partly because they speak little of this matter, and because  they may be easily answered unto by that which is before declared and  often repeated, which is, that a figure hath the name of the thing whereof  it is the figure, and therefore of the figure may be spoken the same thing  that may be spoken of the thing itself.

"And as concerning the  eating and drinking of Christ's flesh and drinking of his blood, they  spake of the spiritual eating and drinking thereof by faith, and not of  corporal eating and drinking with the mouth and teeth.

"Likewise  Eusebius Emissenus is shortly answered unto; for he speaketh not of any  real and corporal conversion of bread and wine into Christ's body and  blood, nor of any corporal and real eating and drinking of the same, but  he speaketh of a sacramental conversion of bread and wine, and of a  spiritual eating and drinking of the body and blood. After which sort,  Christ is as well present in baptism (as the same Eusebius plainly there  declareth) as he is in the Lord's table: which is, not carnally and  corporally, but by faith, and spiritually. But of this author is spoken  before more at large in the matter of transubstantiation.

"And now  I will come to the saying of St. Ambrose, which is always in their mouths.  'Before the consecration,' saith he, as they allege, 'it is bread; but  after the words 'of consecration it is the body of Christ.'

"For  answer hereunto, it must be first known what consecration  is.

"Consecration is the separation of any thing from a profane and  worldly use unto a spiritual and godly use.

"And therefore when  usual and common water is taken from other uses, and put to the use of  baptism, in the name of the Father, and of the Son, and of the Holy Ghost,  then it may rightly be called consecrated water, that is to say, water put  to a holy use.

"Even so when common bread and wine be taken and  severed from other bread and wine, to the use of the holy communion, that  portion of bread and wine, although it be of the same substance that the  other is from which it is severed, yet it is now called consecrated or  holy bread and holy wine.

"Not that the bread and wine have or can  have any holiness in them, but that they be used to an holy work, and  represent holy and godly things. And therefore St. Dionyse calleth the  bread holy bread, and the cup an holy cup, as soon as they be set upon the  altar to the use of the holy communion.

"But specially they may be  called holy and consecrated, when they be separated to that holy use by  Christ's own words, which he spake for that purpose, saying of the bread,  This is my body; and of the wine, This is my blood.

"So that  commonly the authors, before those words be spoken, do take the bread and  the wine but as other common bread and wine; but after those words be  pronounced over them, then they take them for consecrated and holy bread  and wine.

"Not that the bread and wine can be partakers of any  holiness or godliness, or can be the body and blood of Christ; but that  they represent the very body and blood of Christ, and the holy food and  nourishment which we have by him. And so they be called by the names of  the body and blood of Christ, as the sign, token, and figure is called by  the name of the very thing which it showeth and  signifieth."


[Works, Book III, Chapter XV].


See: http://reasonablechristian.blogspot.com/2009/02/cranmer-on-eating-and-drinking-body-and.html

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 cranmer59 <http://www.virtueonline.org/portal/userinfo.php?uid=7711>   Posted: 2009/9/23  12:05  Updated: 2009/9/23  12:05

   Not too shy to talk

 Joined:  2008/12/1
 From:  Casselberry, Florida
 Posts:  39

   Re:  Classical Anglicanism and the Real Presence of Christ...
At least Bob has it half right. There is no real  presence in the bread and wine but the real presence takes place by faith IN the worthy receiver, who is worthy only by faith and not by his own  merits.

I must say this is the most honest comment I have ever seen  Bob make. He has given me cause to think there might be hope for him after  all. If he could just move the real presence from the bread and wine to  where it belongs we might have something to talk about. After receiving  it? No, the real presence is always by faith and in the receiver, not in  the elements.

If only Anglicans would believe the plain teaching of  Scripture, the Articles and the 1662 BCP! (In that order!)

In  Christ,

Charlie

   <http://www.virtueonline.org/portal/modules/news/comment_edit.php?com_itemid=11186&com_order=0&com_mode=flat&com_id=111731> <http://www.virtueonline.org/portal/modules/news/comment_reply.php?com_itemid=11186&com_order=0&com_mode=flat&com_id=111731>
 cranmer59 <http://www.virtueonline.org/portal/userinfo.php?uid=7711>   Posted: 2009/9/23  12:35  Updated: 2009/9/23  12:35

   Not too shy to talk

 Joined:  2008/12/1
 From:  Casselberry, Florida
 Posts:  39

   Re:  Classical Anglicanism and the Real Presence of Christ...
 Selected Works: Cranmer on the Lord's Supper:

http://books.google.com/books?id=mFgYAAAAYAAJ&printsec=frontcover&dq=thomas+cranmer&lr=#v=onepage&q=&f=false

Please  read the original and primary sources.

"We acknowledge but one  altar, the Cross of Calvary. We know but one priest, even the "Priest  forever after the order of Melchizedek." We restore the simple table of  the Lord. We proclaim the elements of bread and wine to be only symbols,  tokens, "pledges of His love." We commemorate the one perfect, finished  sacrifice. We adore Him with unmeasured love. We feed on Him only in  our hearts, by faith."


Bishop George D. Cummins
First  Bishop of the Reformed Episcopal Church

Quoted at: Redemption  Traditional Reformed Episcopal Church <http://www.redemptiontrec.org/Paged.html>


Reasonable Christian: Cranmer On Eating and Drinking the  Body and Blood of Christ <http://reasonablechristian.blogspot.com/2009/02/cranmer-on-eating-and-drinking-body-and.html>

   <http://www.virtueonline.org/portal/modules/news/comment_edit.php?com_itemid=11186&com_order=0&com_mode=flat&com_id=111732> <http://www.virtueonline.org/portal/modules/news/comment_reply.php?com_itemid=11186&com_order=0&com_mode=flat&com_id=111732>
 cranmer59 <http://www.virtueonline.org/portal/userinfo.php?uid=7711>   Posted: 2009/9/23  12:38  Updated: 2009/9/23  12:38

   Not too shy to talk

 Joined:  2008/12/1
 From:  Casselberry, Florida
 Posts:  39

   Re:  Classical Anglicanism and the Real Presence of Christ...
 At last we agree on something, Mathman!

   <http://www.virtueonline.org/portal/modules/news/comment_edit.php?com_itemid=11186&com_order=0&com_mode=flat&com_id=111733> <http://www.virtueonline.org/portal/modules/news/comment_reply.php?com_itemid=11186&com_order=0&com_mode=flat&com_id=111733>
 cranmer59 <http://www.virtueonline.org/portal/userinfo.php?uid=7711>   Posted: 2009/9/23  13:01  Updated: 2009/9/23  13:01

   Not too shy to talk

 Joined:  2008/12/1
 From:  Casselberry, Florida
 Posts:  39

   Re:  Classical Anglicanism and the Real Presence of Christ...
 This view is called "receptionism", and it is  rejected in the Thirty-nine Articles. Article XXVIII teaches: "The Body of  Christ is given, taken, and eaten, in the Supper," (italics added).  Despite the teachings of Scripture and of Article XXVIII, receptionism  historically has had influence among Anglicans.
The author  stated the above without putting the full quote which is:

The  body of Christ is given, taken, and eaten in the Supper, only after an  heavenly and spiritual manner. And the mean whereby the body of Christ is  received and eaten in the Supper is Faith.

Article 28 <http://www.eskimo.com/~lhowell/bcp1662/articles/articles.html#28>

Furthermore, the 1662 Book of Common  Prayer likewise places the eating of the true body and blood of Christ in  the heart of the believer by faith:

THE Body of our Lord Jesus  Christ, which was given for thee, preserve thy body and soul unto  everlasting life. Take and eat this in remembrance that Christ died for  thee, and feed on him in thy heart by faith with  thanksgiving.

Feed on Him WHERE? FEED ON HIM IN  THY HEART BY FAITH with thanksgiving.

The Lord's Supper, 1662 Book of Common Prayer <http://www.eskimo.com/~lhowell/bcp1662/communion/index.html>

The  Alice In Wonderland method of exegesis and interpretation is rampant in  Anglo-Catholic circles these days. What a word plainly means no longer  plainly means what it plainly means!

To quote Gillis  Harp:

"When I use a word," Humpty Dumpty said, in rather a  scornful tone, "it
means just what I choose it to mean—neither more nor  less."
"The question is," said Alice, "whether you CAN make words mean  so many
different things."
"The question is," said Humpty Dumpty,  "which is to be master—that?s all."
(from Through the Looking  Glass)


Churchman: Recovering Confessional Anglicanism, by Gillis J.  Harp <http://www.churchsociety.org/churchman/documents/Cman_116_3_Harp.pdf>

If Novak's article proves anything, it is the utter  dishonesty and dissimulation rampant in the Reformed Episcopal Church  which has adopted the Anglo-Catholic method of interpreting Scripture, the  39 Articles, the 1662 Book of Common Prayer, and their own Declaration of  Principles!

Sincerely in Christ,

Charlie


From:  http://www.virtueonline.org/portal/modules/news/article.php?storyid=11186&com_id=111735&com_rootid=111735&com_mode=flat&com_order=0#comment111735

The Fifteenth Sunday after Trinity



The Collect.

KEEP, we beseech thee, O Lord, thy Church with thy perpetual mercy: and, because the frailty of man without thee cannot but fall, keep us ever by thy help from all things hurtful, and lead us to all things profitable to our salvation; through Jesus Christ our Lord. Amen.

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