tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-15388492.post115672480172242983..comments2024-03-27T20:28:38.015-04:00Comments on Reasonable Christian: Karl Barth and UniversalismCharlie J. Rayhttp://www.blogger.com/profile/18185331029930925967noreply@blogger.comBlogger53125tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-15388492.post-63658905127670186802009-05-24T07:37:02.644-04:002009-05-24T07:37:02.644-04:00And read, rather....And read, rather....Charlie J. Rayhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/18185331029930925967noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-15388492.post-2699546594710709622009-05-24T07:35:32.589-04:002009-05-24T07:35:32.589-04:00Shamby said: "Even Calvin recognized that God cou...Shamby said: "Even Calvin recognized that God could not justifiably damn those to hell who were not aware of Him, which was why a natural theology provided plausible means."<br /><br />Well, Calvin recognized that Scripture says that natural revelation is enough to condemn those who have not heard the Gospel. The Apostle Paul says that in Romans 1:18ff. But Paul goes on to state that this Charlie J. Rayhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/18185331029930925967noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-15388492.post-87718856487603132612009-05-24T07:20:49.788-04:002009-05-24T07:20:49.788-04:00Shamby, I was please to note how many times you ap...Shamby, I was please to note how many times you appealed to "mystery" and "ignorance" regarding foreknowledge, election, and the "potency of sin" or the sinful nature. Funny, but that was the very criticism leveled against Calvin's Institutes by Dr. Thomas O'Malley during the seminar we did there in the early 1990's.<br /><br />You really should go back are read Luther's Bondage of the Will in Charlie J. Rayhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/18185331029930925967noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-15388492.post-30898703701154283742009-05-24T07:15:36.935-04:002009-05-24T07:15:36.935-04:00In the future, please limit all comments to less t...In the future, please limit all comments to less than 4,000 characters as it will not publish on the blog system.<br /><br />CharlieCharlie J. Rayhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/18185331029930925967noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-15388492.post-34137367795297380352009-05-24T07:14:52.722-04:002009-05-24T07:14:52.722-04:00Part 4 of Shamby's comment:
>>>>
...Part 4 of Shamby's comment:<br /><br />>>>><br /><br />"How can God foreknow who will choose him as Savior if the future is contingent and uncertain?" Many Arminians will say that these two are not mutually exclusive. God's foreknowledge does not imply His pre-determination of events. From humanity's perspective, it is free to accept or reject Christ. I Charlie J. Rayhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/18185331029930925967noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-15388492.post-51553154566838645932009-05-24T07:12:57.989-04:002009-05-24T07:12:57.989-04:00Part 3 of Shamby's comment:
"while pretending tha...Part 3 of Shamby's comment:<br /><br />"while pretending that you yourself are somehow superior or above being wrong." I thought I have made it clear that I can be wrong. Please show me where I expressed the converse.<br /><br />"To say otherwise is to depart from orthodoxy, which IT SEEMS TO ME you have already done." Thank you for saying "it seems to me". By "church universally" you mean the Charlie J. Rayhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/18185331029930925967noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-15388492.post-79376778214892724932009-05-24T07:08:22.520-04:002009-05-24T07:08:22.520-04:00Part 2 of what Shamby said:
>>>>>
...Part 2 of what Shamby said:<br /><br />>>>>><br /><br />Also, I would like to know whether we, as Christians, should love only those who are "elected" or if we ought to love all human beings? As per your comments on Eph.5:1 and what followed.<br /><br />I do not disagree that God could justifiably annihilate we creatures, nor do I negate God's sovereignty. However, I Charlie J. Rayhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/18185331029930925967noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-15388492.post-34888981044822310772009-05-24T07:06:31.676-04:002009-05-24T07:06:31.676-04:00Shamby, for some reason the following post you mad...Shamby, for some reason the following post you made would not publish because of the length of the post or something. So I am publishing it here in two parts.<br /><br />>>>>><br /><br />"Regarding the sovereignty of God and the use of kosmos in John, I must say that your diatribe was the lengthiest red herring and non sequitur I've seen in ages. The fact that you think Charlie J. Rayhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/18185331029930925967noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-15388492.post-17863759493572940582009-05-24T06:54:06.598-04:002009-05-24T06:54:06.598-04:00I base my assessment on the overall writings of Ka...I base my assessment on the overall writings of Karl Barth. Furthermore, we must start with the premise that orthodoxy means we hold to the plain meaning of Holy Scripture as perspicuous. On that basis alone Barth falls short because his doctrine of Scripture is that it is merely a collection of writings in human form and that the Scriptures are not direct revelation from God nor directly Charlie J. Rayhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/18185331029930925967noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-15388492.post-62281790279904129312009-05-23T11:35:33.897-04:002009-05-23T11:35:33.897-04:00Shamby said, "Augustine says that we are to love s...Shamby said, "Augustine says that we are to love sinners for what they can be potentially. I think this informs how Christians are to love quite a bit."<br /><br />Your remark about "potential" is misleading. From God's perspective there is no "potential." God knows the future and has in fact determined it and will providentially bring it to pass. From Augustine's perspective, and by Charlie J. Rayhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/18185331029930925967noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-15388492.post-72186305340386158382009-05-22T18:59:06.811-04:002009-05-22T18:59:06.811-04:00I also notice that you only see salvation as a "po...I also notice that you only see salvation as a "potential". Meaning that salvation is a crap shoot. God gives grace to all mankind and hopes someone is strong enough to reject sin.<br /><br />Looks like it isn't working very often. If it really were just a matter of accepting Jesus and rejecting sin, surely more folks would respond to the "love" you have for them and the "love" God has for theCharlie J. Rayhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/18185331029930925967noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-15388492.post-726005958742444222009-05-22T18:56:23.307-04:002009-05-22T18:56:23.307-04:00Shamby said, "...rather it is sin which erodes thi...Shamby said, "...rather it is sin which erodes this relationship and makes it less than it could be in potential."<br /><br />In other words, you're saying that where grace did abound, sin did much more abound? Sin is more powerful than grace at least 80% of the time? (Judging from the percentage of professing Christians in the visible churches?)<br /><br />Scripture clearly says the opposite:<Charlie J. Rayhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/18185331029930925967noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-15388492.post-36593049649816892452009-05-22T18:43:44.862-04:002009-05-22T18:43:44.862-04:00Shamby, morally "neutral" implies that mankind is ...Shamby, morally "neutral" implies that mankind is born "good." In the original creation mankind was created good. Pelagianism taught that man only "became" a sinner after giving in to temptation and committing "actual" sins. The unavoidable implication is that each man is born good and only becomes sinful in following after Adam and not by the federal guilt of original sin or by the corruptionCharlie J. Rayhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/18185331029930925967noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-15388492.post-55374042372615889282009-05-22T17:45:08.479-04:002009-05-22T17:45:08.479-04:00Shamby, I was an Arminian for most of my life. Ex...Shamby, I was an Arminian for most of my life. Except as a young boy I did attend a Presbyterian church a few times. However, I did not understand the differences at that time.<br /><br />What troubled me about the Arminian position over time was the idea of God's being all powerful, all knowing, and everywhere present. We are all natural born pelagians and as Christians, Arminianism is the Charlie J. Rayhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/18185331029930925967noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-15388492.post-60828052914599860452009-05-22T14:02:28.881-04:002009-05-22T14:02:28.881-04:00It is not, therefore, out of pity, which we show k...It is not, therefore, out of pity, which we show kindness to the sinner. It is rather out of a love for God and for God's sake that we love what God also loves and loved first.<br /><br />It is not so much that I love others more than I love God. I love others for God's sake just as I love God for God's own sake. In so far as I am loving others, I am loving God, and so my love for others can Shambyhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/12104866591539920297noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-15388492.post-60148681764795546212009-05-22T14:02:06.651-04:002009-05-22T14:02:06.651-04:00Thank you for answering the last question. You've...Thank you for answering the last question. You've stated it well, I think. I am trying to figure out whether I can reconcile what you have said with my own views. I’m hung up on what you mean by “benevolence, kindness, and charity” in distinction to “love”. Scripture speaks to our conduct with unbelievers as well as believers, and they are not treated equally. I think we can agree on this. Shambyhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/12104866591539920297noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-15388492.post-44060867520480116662009-05-22T13:58:25.292-04:002009-05-22T13:58:25.292-04:00I recognize that God's election of Jacob and rejec...I recognize that God's election of Jacob and rejection of Esau was prior to their birth. It was not because of their deeds that God selected the one and not the other for His covenant. I do not think that this precludes the remarks which I've made--I said nothing about merit. I'm not sure then, what is wrong with my exegesis since it seems like we are for the most part, in agreement.<br /><br Shambyhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/12104866591539920297noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-15388492.post-27686884859395331962009-05-21T18:15:07.564-04:002009-05-21T18:15:07.564-04:00We are to show benevolence to all mankind, includi...We are to show benevolence to all mankind, including our enemies. But we do not love every single individual in the same way. I love my wife more than my mother, etc. <br /><br />Likewise, we have a special love and affection for those in the household of faith. But we only have a general benevolence for the homeless, the prisoner, the rebel, and our enemy. <br /><br />Surely you don't love Charlie J. Rayhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/18185331029930925967noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-15388492.post-14950038104516875402009-05-21T18:01:53.838-04:002009-05-21T18:01:53.838-04:00Shamby said: >>>>SO God made His cove...Shamby said: >>>>SO God made His covenant with Abraham and Isaac. When it came to Isaac's two sons, God kept His covenant with the one and not the other. He 'hated' Esau because he did not keep covenant with him. He 'loved' Jacob because He did keep his covenant with him. "Inheritance" language is in Mal. 1 so I think this interpretation is legitimate. Charlie J. Rayhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/18185331029930925967noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-15388492.post-30610481201149735022009-05-20T23:18:01.926-04:002009-05-20T23:18:01.926-04:00As for the Tower of Salome, I know. I said, "The ...As for the Tower of Salome, I know. I said, "The Tower of Salome did not kill the unjust only, death is indiscriminate and all are sinful." It should have read "...did not kill the only unjust..." I realize my wording was awkward and misleading...it sounded right last night. I hear what you are saying that all sinners deserve death. The logical question which I am led to ask regarding the Shambyhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/12104866591539920297noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-15388492.post-83515111493239332742009-05-20T21:08:31.217-04:002009-05-20T21:08:31.217-04:00God does not love unbelievers. He shows benevolen...God does not love unbelievers. He shows benevolence toward them. Even if we contend that God loves the wicked, there is no way that we can say that God loves the unbeliever the same way He loves the believer. The believer is a child of God and has been adopted as part of God's family.<br /><br />How can you deny that Scripture says God hates the wicked and that God hated Esau and loved Jacob Charlie J. Rayhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/18185331029930925967noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-15388492.post-86626565422819311492009-05-20T21:04:53.214-04:002009-05-20T21:04:53.214-04:00Fatalism has nothing to do with God. In fact, fat...Fatalism has nothing to do with God. In fact, fatalism is a pagan concept based on an agnostic or atheistic belief that fate is a blind determinism and capricious at best. It is an attempt to deal with the problem of evil without appealing to the Christian theistic worldview. <br /><br />The Reformed view, and I would say the Lutherans would agree, is that God sovereignly controls by His Charlie J. Rayhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/18185331029930925967noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-15388492.post-22790599961877368942009-05-20T20:58:57.765-04:002009-05-20T20:58:57.765-04:00Regarding your misinterpretation of John 3:16, I h...Regarding your misinterpretation of John 3:16, I have already answer that point but you conveniently ignored it. John's Gospel over and over particularizes the elect over against the unbelieving world as does Matthew's Gospel. When John says that God loves the world, he then particularizes and qualifies that to say that those who do not believe are CONDEMNED ALREADY BECAUSE THEY HAVE NOT Charlie J. Rayhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/18185331029930925967noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-15388492.post-57099644659388199782009-05-20T20:58:45.118-04:002009-05-20T20:58:45.118-04:00Shamby said>>> As for our using the &quo...Shamby said>>> As for our using the "God's wrath" logic for hurricanes and earthquakes in modern times, we do not have the privilege of inspiration such as the Biblical authors had, and it would be conjectural to point to these events as "judgments". Maybe yes, maybe no; but God has not inspired us with that insight. ......<br /><br />Jesus Christ qualifies the Charlie J. Rayhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/18185331029930925967noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-15388492.post-66983873447808461832009-05-20T00:02:36.631-04:002009-05-20T00:02:36.631-04:00"The last time I checked, you have not answered an..."The last time I checked, you have not answered any of the biblical texts I've cited in favor of the Reformed view." Then you didn't check. I quoted John 3:16 in response to your statement at the beginning of this second exchange between us when you said, "Scripture in fact says that God loves only those whom He has determined to save. The elect." I've looked, and you did not, as far as I can Shambyhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/12104866591539920297noreply@blogger.com