tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-15388492.post2076185700546149541..comments2024-03-27T20:28:38.015-04:00Comments on Reasonable Christian: The TheologianCharlie J. Rayhttp://www.blogger.com/profile/18185331029930925967noreply@blogger.comBlogger38125tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-15388492.post-25818966014885097952011-01-26T06:47:25.742-05:002011-01-26T06:47:25.742-05:00In other words, it is a moot point to say that Aug...In other words, it is a moot point to say that Augustine or anyone else says they "lost justification" or they "lost regeneration", etc. The fact is they were destined to fall and were never effectually called. It is easy to see how Calvin and Luther would have understood Augustine on this point. It's not that they "lost their salvation" but that they were Charlie J. Rayhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/18185331029930925967noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-15388492.post-25052125357937536382011-01-26T06:45:15.321-05:002011-01-26T06:45:15.321-05:00Chapter 21.--Instances of the Unsearchable Judgmen...Chapter 21.--Instances of the Unsearchable Judgments of God.<br /><br /> <br /><br /> <b> Therefore, of two infants, equally bound by original sin, why the one is taken and the other left; and of two wicked men of already mature years, why this one should be so called as to follow Him that calleth, while that one is either not called at all, or is not called in such a manner,--the judgments of Charlie J. Rayhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/18185331029930925967noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-15388492.post-53204811398592226232011-01-26T05:46:01.317-05:002011-01-26T05:46:01.317-05:00Your quote from Latimer shows that Latimer likewis...Your quote from Latimer shows that Latimer likewise understands regeneration as the deciding factor:<br /><br /><i>But I say there be two manner of men: some there be that be not justified, not regenerate, nor yet in the state of salvation; that is to say, not God’s servants : they lack the renovation or regeneration ; they be not come yet to Christ. Now these persons who be they that be not comeCharlie J. Rayhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/18185331029930925967noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-15388492.post-26523860689853169212011-01-26T05:41:36.794-05:002011-01-26T05:41:36.794-05:00That would be odd since Scripture does not say tha...That would be odd since Scripture does not say that the reprobate were ever regenerated. It flies in the face of John 3:3-8, which equates spiritual birth with natural birth, both of which are outside our control. And unless someone is "born again" they "will not see the kingdom of God." A temporary partaking followed by apostasy is not the same thing as regeneration. TheyCharlie J. Rayhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/18185331029930925967noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-15388492.post-37968754775411699542011-01-25T23:29:09.427-05:002011-01-25T23:29:09.427-05:00I apologize ahead of time for the lack of citation...I apologize ahead of time for the lack of citations in the post I just sent. It would be great to delve into the Word of God on this issue (esp. given that it is, of course, the true foundational reason for me coming to the positions I have, and more importantly for men such as Augustine and Luther (who, unlike myself, are actually great theologians) coming to the positions they did).<br /><br />Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-15388492.post-5170286082623705292011-01-25T22:54:22.157-05:002011-01-25T22:54:22.157-05:00Here's a short follow up post--I don't kno...Here's a short follow up post--I don't know when I'll be able to do any follow up posts.<br /><br />"Luther, however, never taught that the reprobate are genuinely regenerated and neither did Calvin."<br /><br />I agree that Calvin didn't hold this. To my knowledge, though, it is universally affirmed by scholars that Luther held that those who are not of the Elect may<brAnonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-15388492.post-72011219399908715292011-01-24T10:25:26.429-05:002011-01-24T10:25:26.429-05:00Calvin on temporary faith and that the reprobate d...Calvin on temporary faith and that the reprobate do not receive regeneration:<br /><br /><i>11. I am aware it seems unaccountable to some how faith is attributed to the reprobate, seeing that it is declared by Paul to be one of the fruits of election;28 [86 286 Thess. 1:3, 4; 2 Thess. 2:13; Tit. 1.] and yet the difficulty is easily solved: for though none are enlightened into faith, and truly Charlie J. Rayhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/18185331029930925967noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-15388492.post-55127875438361628152011-01-24T10:07:03.890-05:002011-01-24T10:07:03.890-05:00You said, "Calvin believed in apostasy. But h...You said, "Calvin believed in apostasy. But he did not believe (contra what many FV have claimed) that those who have been regenerated by the Spirit and given the gift of true faith and received the imputed righteousness of Christ can ever lose this grace. Augustine, Luther, and the English Reformers did believe this (and I believe firmly that God's Word teaches it)." <br /><br />I Charlie J. Rayhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/18185331029930925967noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-15388492.post-62063753781333899332011-01-24T10:02:39.221-05:002011-01-24T10:02:39.221-05:00I don't know what your disagreement with Calvi...I don't know what your disagreement with Calvin is. However, it is clear that Calvin does say that those who commit apostasy in the final since were never saved and that they are reprobates.<br /><br />CharlieCharlie J. Rayhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/18185331029930925967noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-15388492.post-67225796123205133762011-01-24T10:01:32.561-05:002011-01-24T10:01:32.561-05:00Calvin, in his commentary on Hebrews 6:4 make it a...Calvin, in his commentary on Hebrews 6:4 make it abundantly clear that there are two senses in which we may discuss "falling away" or "apostasy". A temporary falling away is not necessarily a permanent falling away, which the writer of Hebrews describes above. In fact, Calvin relates that those who sin against their neighbor in the Second Tablet of the Decalogue have not Charlie J. Rayhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/18185331029930925967noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-15388492.post-514058055901676032011-01-24T08:24:27.238-05:002011-01-24T08:24:27.238-05:00At the time Latimer wrote these sermons the Englis...At the time Latimer wrote these sermons the English church was still the process of reforming. It would not be strange that he would use a term like "deadly sin" in a similar way that the Roman Catholics used it but with a different meaning.Charlie J. Rayhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/18185331029930925967noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-15388492.post-86620883330937820612011-01-24T08:22:13.022-05:002011-01-24T08:22:13.022-05:00I don't believe that the reprobate ever truly ...I don't believe that the reprobate ever truly have a genuine faith and therefore never have the "gift of faith." They partake of the divine nature only in the sense that they partake of the outward and visible means of grace like Baptism and the Lord's Supper.Charlie J. Rayhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/18185331029930925967noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-15388492.post-23130580676852368582011-01-24T06:28:21.696-05:002011-01-24T06:28:21.696-05:00p.p.s. Latimer does use the term "mortal"...p.p.s. Latimer does use the term "mortal" sin twice (in reference to "witting and willing" sin, which he elsewhere calls "deadly" sins--contracting these "deadly" or "mortal" sins with "venial" sins).Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-15388492.post-5576766456302519602011-01-24T06:20:36.907-05:002011-01-24T06:20:36.907-05:00Amen to Article 17 and the quote on justification ...Amen to Article 17 and the quote on justification by faith alone from Latimer and . Note that Latimer specifies "mortal"/"deadly" sins (versus "venial" sins) as "witting or willing sins" that cause us to "lose the Holy Ghost" and "the remission of sins." <br /><br />Just a few points:<br />1. I'm certainly not claiming that God'sAnonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-15388492.post-73235509979718394452011-01-24T06:10:10.242-05:002011-01-24T06:10:10.242-05:00Hello Charlie, I apologize--I just don't know ...Hello Charlie, I apologize--I just don't know how to get the link to go to the actual Sermon I quoted from--that's one of the reasons I cited which Sermon it is, so anyone can use the Table of Contents to find it. It is on page 7-9 of the book I linked to. I'd encourage you to read the Sermon--it's good stuff. <br /><br />I guess with the above info you'll let the post go Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-15388492.post-51758646415955357692011-01-22T13:44:58.385-05:002011-01-22T13:44:58.385-05:00Hugh Latimer on Law and Gospel and Justification b...Hugh Latimer on Law and Gospel and Justification by Faith alone:<br /><br /><i>Ye may not then, I say, be offended with my similitude, for because I liken preaching to a ploughman's labour, and a prelate to a ploughman. But now you will ask me, whom I call a prelate? A prelate is that man, whatsoever he be, that hath a flock to be taught of him; whosoever hath any spiritual charge in the Charlie J. Rayhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/18185331029930925967noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-15388492.post-62376460551321355722011-01-22T13:29:10.095-05:002011-01-22T13:29:10.095-05:00Clearly, Article 17 blows your position right out ...Clearly, Article 17 blows your position right out of the water.Charlie J. Rayhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/18185331029930925967noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-15388492.post-29204644255433931682011-01-22T13:28:46.525-05:002011-01-22T13:28:46.525-05:00Again, William, you have yet to produce anything t...Again, William, you have yet to produce anything that Latimer said which would prove that election is conditional to perseverance. I'm still waiting.Charlie J. Rayhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/18185331029930925967noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-15388492.post-71668167877414327052011-01-22T13:25:47.105-05:002011-01-22T13:25:47.105-05:00Basically, Latimer says that sins in the thoughts ...Basically, Latimer says that sins in the thoughts are venial sins and acting on those sinful thoughts is "deadly sin". But if Latimer meant "mortal sin" maybe he should have used that term?<br /><br />The fact is the Reformed position does not dispute the fact that those who are in open sin have no assurance of salvation. They have in that sense lost their "salvation Charlie J. Rayhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/18185331029930925967noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-15388492.post-33426510560110686702011-01-22T13:12:54.656-05:002011-01-22T13:12:54.656-05:00I did post your cut from Latimer's sermon.
Un...I did post your cut from Latimer's sermon.<br /><br />Unfortunately, you have not given a proper link since it only goes to the table of contents.Charlie J. Rayhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/18185331029930925967noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-15388492.post-58990924887169214722011-01-22T13:07:31.315-05:002011-01-22T13:07:31.315-05:00I welcome any feeble attempt you might make to pro...I welcome any feeble attempt you might make to prooftext Latimer or any other Reformed Anglican. Nowhere does Latimer teach "conditional" election. That's an Arminian doctrine and it is semi-pelagian.Charlie J. Rayhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/18185331029930925967noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-15388492.post-25094278256405311282011-01-22T12:13:07.415-05:002011-01-22T12:13:07.415-05:00I wish, since you said I was being dishonest about...I wish, since you said I was being dishonest about my church membership, that you would allow me to defend myself by not omitting the last post that I sent. <br /><br />Besides if you should post the quote I gave from Latimer so that others have the ability to determine whether or not I am being deceptive or wrong headed in my comments on the English Reformers and "deadly/mortal sin." <Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-15388492.post-55807225041911205462011-01-22T12:00:14.328-05:002011-01-22T12:00:14.328-05:00Calvin believed in apostasy. But he did not believ...<i>Calvin believed in apostasy. But he did not believe (contra what many FV have claimed) that those who have been regenerated by the Spirit and given the gift of true faith and received the imputed righteousness of Christ can ever lose this grace. </i><br /><br />Election is before the foundation of the world. If God intends to save them, then they will be saved. Ephesians 1:4, 11.<br /><br /><Charlie J. Rayhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/18185331029930925967noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-15388492.post-73913031367700483882011-01-22T11:48:29.004-05:002011-01-22T11:48:29.004-05:00I might add that if you have something to hide you...I might add that if you have something to hide you really shouldn't be posting here. I have my name and my reputation up front for all to see.<br /><br />It's called "integrity", William. Do you have any integrity to back up your tendentious reading of the Homilies?Charlie J. Rayhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/18185331029930925967noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-15388492.post-333264675686185232011-01-22T11:46:41.745-05:002011-01-22T11:46:41.745-05:00Also, you do not know ANY Anglo-Catholic minister ...Also, you do not know ANY Anglo-Catholic minister who is a 5 point Calvinist. Whoever you are referring to is a Papist. There is no such thing as a Papist who is also a Protestant. The man is a liar and a dissimulator.<br /><br />Give me his name and number.<br /><br />I'll set him straight.<br /><br />As for the OPC, it's a troubled denomination. One cannot tell from one congregationCharlie J. Rayhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/18185331029930925967noreply@blogger.com