tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-15388492.post8380651713448297746..comments2024-03-27T20:28:38.015-04:00Comments on Reasonable Christian: The Westminster Captivity? Further Comments on the Pentecostal/Charismatic MovementCharlie J. Rayhttp://www.blogger.com/profile/18185331029930925967noreply@blogger.comBlogger37125tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-15388492.post-78561778376053609142014-01-05T08:47:35.214-05:002014-01-05T08:47:35.214-05:00My views on Clark's book, The Incarnation have...My views on Clark's book, The Incarnation have changed. I no longer believe that Clark's view was or is Nestorian. It is in fact a further development of the doctrine of two wills in Christ. 1/5/2014Charlie J. Rayhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/18185331029930925967noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-15388492.post-27361565513870986572010-05-05T11:30:54.239-04:002010-05-05T11:30:54.239-04:00The Charismatic Theology of Kenosis and the Spirit...<a href="http://reasonablechristian.blogspot.com/2010/05/charismatic-theology-of-kenosis-and.html" rel="nofollow">The Charismatic Theology of Kenosis and the Spirit-filled Man, Jesus</a>Charlie J. Rayhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/18185331029930925967noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-15388492.post-24395451034548681112010-05-05T11:28:48.975-04:002010-05-05T11:28:48.975-04:00Speigal, and I'm not sure what signifance hidd...Speigal, and I'm not sure what signifance hidden miracles have as "signs". The signs point to Jesus. Any miracle out of that context is simply irrelevant. Thus, any miracle that no one sees or recognizes as genuine cannot point to anything.<br /><br />Besides, miracles cannot convince the dead to believe in anything at all.<br /><br />Don't tell me you're one of those Charlie J. Rayhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/18185331029930925967noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-15388492.post-17759170367165294212010-05-05T11:08:17.007-04:002010-05-05T11:08:17.007-04:00spiegal, I can easily do it. Deuteronomy 6:4
It ...spiegal, I can easily do it. Deuteronomy 6:4<br /><br />It all follows from that. The problem with the "non-cessationist" argument is that it is basically idolatrous. Romans 1:18-32. The charismatic movement's theology is not based on Scripture but experience and ecstatic theology read back into the text. <br /><br />Jesus could perform miracles by His own authority as God. Charlie J. Rayhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/18185331029930925967noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-15388492.post-29749283747739573062010-05-05T10:39:16.573-04:002010-05-05T10:39:16.573-04:00I;m not sure what you mean when you say that if Go...I;m not sure what you mean when you say that if God so chooses to perform a miracle that everyone will recognize it. Did everyone recorded in the Bible believe that every miracle was a miracle? <br /><br />And from what I've read and understood the debate and cessationists will sometimes agree, the onus is on the cessationist to prove his position under the rule of the burden of proof. <br />speigelnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-15388492.post-10559446256790211702010-05-05T09:03:49.362-04:002010-05-05T09:03:49.362-04:00Speigal, I read Stronstad's book, The Charisma...Speigal, I read Stronstad's book, The Charismatic Theology of St. Luke, some years ago. I no longer have my copy so I can only go from memory.<br /><br />However, the basic premise of practically ALL charismatic theology IS Arminian. In other words, rather than seeing God as sovereign over the distribution of gifts and signs/wonders/miracles they see that man has to cooperate or "do&Charlie J. Rayhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/18185331029930925967noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-15388492.post-611326531792433222010-05-04T16:28:21.943-04:002010-05-04T16:28:21.943-04:00Charlie,
What do you consider the best biblical a...Charlie,<br /><br />What do you consider the best biblical argument against continuationism? <br /><br />What do you think of Jon Ruthven or Rger Strongstad in regards to their work on continuing spiritual gifts?speigelnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-15388492.post-10005896431198042692010-05-03T17:31:49.758-04:002010-05-03T17:31:49.758-04:00Roger said: Yes, rebutting "straw man" ...Roger said: <i>Yes, rebutting "straw man" arguments is usually pretty easy. That's why they are fabricated and used -- to help people with no valid argument to sound smart and feel smug about themselves. It works well, doesn't it?</i><br /><br />Well the charismatics think it works well, which is why they keep using them. The cessationist argument is that GOD does miracles andCharlie J. Rayhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/18185331029930925967noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-15388492.post-25687934693644468652010-05-03T17:13:52.639-04:002010-05-03T17:13:52.639-04:00I would suggest you go and read Wayne Grudem. He&#...I would suggest you go and read Wayne Grudem. He's one of your "reformed" charismatics. His book on <b>The Gift of Prophecy in the NT and Today</b> is a real eye opener:)<br /><br />You forget that I was trained in a pentecostal college, Roger. I was also a member of the Society for Pentecostal Studies for 2 years in seminary. I've read more of the academic pentecostal Charlie J. Rayhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/18185331029930925967noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-15388492.post-56914411373277437592010-05-03T17:10:07.799-04:002010-05-03T17:10:07.799-04:00Roger said: "Scripture clearly commands us t...Roger said: <i>"Scripture clearly commands us to 'Follow the way of love and eagerly desire spiritual gifts, especially the gift of prophecy' (1 Corinthians 14:1). Therefore, it is outright rebellion against God's clear command to teach that we should not 'follow the way of love' or 'desire spiritual gifts' unless it can be proven from Scripture that this commandCharlie J. Rayhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/18185331029930925967noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-15388492.post-4502462142002390302010-05-03T17:08:15.211-04:002010-05-03T17:08:15.211-04:00Roger said: However, as I'm learning as this d...Roger said: <i>However, as I'm learning as this debate goes on, you conveniently twist what I have said when it suits your purpose.</i><br /><br />Well no, bait and switch, jump all over the map and quoting Scripture out of context would be your method of debate. Heretics always try to falsely shift the burden of proof and make empty assertions of this or that as if that will somehow lend Charlie J. Rayhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/18185331029930925967noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-15388492.post-86386113809983096242010-05-03T17:04:18.796-04:002010-05-03T17:04:18.796-04:00Roger said: First, I never insinuated that if you...Roger said: <i>First, I never insinuated that if you disagree with me you are in rebellion.</i><br /><br />Well, YES you DID. First of all, you're not an apostle OR a prophet as defined in Scripture. So therefore your assertion that if I disagree with your exegesis I'm in rebellion against God is a NON SEQUITUR.<br /><br />CharlieCharlie J. Rayhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/18185331029930925967noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-15388492.post-27317253142774875692010-05-03T17:02:36.732-04:002010-05-03T17:02:36.732-04:00Roger said: But for your information, Calvin is r...Roger said: <i>But for your information, Calvin is referring to the texts in the OT where Israel was conquered by other nations because of Israel's unbelief. So they would hear and learn to speak other languages because of their disobedience. The tongues are the sign of God's punishment of Israel's rebellion.<br /><br />For your information, Calvin is referring to the Spirit given Charlie J. Rayhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/18185331029930925967noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-15388492.post-18673665532958329712010-05-03T16:59:52.240-04:002010-05-03T16:59:52.240-04:00Roger said: Charlie: The ONLY issue here is doc...Roger said: Charlie:<b> The ONLY issue here is doctrine from Scripture and the Gospel is the central message, not what God can do for you in healing, etc.</b><br /><br /><i>I never claimed otherwise. Another "straw man."</i><br /><br />I but now you're lying. Isn't that a violation of the 9th commandment? You DID say that. Otherwise, what's the big deal about ongoing &Charlie J. Rayhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/18185331029930925967noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-15388492.post-42569432866717688202010-05-03T16:56:46.774-04:002010-05-03T16:56:46.774-04:00Roger said: Thus, the burden of proof is on you t...Roger said: <i>Thus, the burden of proof is on you to demonstrate that God has ceased working miracles through His chosen people, as I see nothing in Scripture to indicate that He has.</i> You admit you haven't seen a miracle so what is your basis for believing in ongoing miracles if they are supposed to be so "plentiful" pray tell? I can observe false prophets daily on TBN and Charlie J. Rayhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/18185331029930925967noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-15388492.post-48744822348519729512010-05-03T16:54:21.201-04:002010-05-03T16:54:21.201-04:00Roger said:
Also, I never claimed that God "...Roger said: <br /><br /><i>Also, I never claimed that God "needs" anyone to do a miracle. Again, what kind of silly response to my argument is that? Nevertheless, while God is under no necessity to use miracles to confirm His propositional truth revealed in Scripture, He has freely chosen to do so many times in the past in accordance with His sovereign will:</i><br /><br />Roger, citingCharlie J. Rayhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/18185331029930925967noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-15388492.post-45111405011235737522010-05-03T15:43:59.027-04:002010-05-03T15:43:59.027-04:00And, btw, are you claiming that somehow extrabibli...<i>And, btw, are you claiming that somehow extrabiblical miracles are signs and "infallible"? Am I bound to accept the miracles of Mormons, the New Age Movement, or the Muslims? Roger, your logic is impeccable. Really it is. So what you're really saying is the Bible is not the final word in these matters and I should be "open" to other religions? Rebutting these sorts of Roger Mannhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/18350892815584257304noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-15388492.post-6002132606828791652010-05-03T15:38:39.561-04:002010-05-03T15:38:39.561-04:00The bottom line is that when I pray for healing Go...<i>The bottom line is that when I pray for healing God either says, "YES," or He says, "NO." All the doublespeak, spin and smoke and mirrors and BS in the world is not going to change God's decretal will which He has determined from before the foundation of the world.</i><br /><br />I never claimed otherwise. Do you make it a habit of erecting "straw men" to Roger Mannhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/18350892815584257304noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-15388492.post-14349749663711387152010-05-03T15:36:10.837-04:002010-05-03T15:36:10.837-04:00Oh, here we go. Roger, the master of bait and swit...<i>Oh, here we go. Roger, the master of bait and switch. First off, Cheung isn't the pope the last time I checked. Scripture is the final authority, not Cheung. Second of all, the last time I checked God does not need anyone to do a miracle. That's Arminianism or worse to insist that we must "cooperate" or "practice" spiritual gifts. And pray tell, how am I supposed toRoger Mannhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/18350892815584257304noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-15388492.post-31194802660562478692010-05-03T09:00:44.399-04:002010-05-03T09:00:44.399-04:00Roger said, Sorry, but the burden of proof lies wi...Roger said, <i>Sorry, but the burden of proof lies with those making the claims for their miracles. Show me one.<br /><br />Sorry, Charlie, but I'm not an Empiricist, and don't intend on becoming one any time soon. I've never personally seen God work a miracle. But that hardly proves that He no longer works miracles. I've also never personally seen the risen Christ. But I Charlie J. Rayhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/18185331029930925967noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-15388492.post-38592171215740559812010-05-03T08:53:48.460-04:002010-05-03T08:53:48.460-04:00I think that's enough for now...
And really, ...I think that's enough for now...<br /><br />And really, my time is limited, so simply posting lots of articles for me to read is not going to do much for your side. I don't have time to do your reading lists. If you can't summarize the arguments and own them for yourself, then I guess we will have to leave it at that.<br /><br />CharlieCharlie J. Rayhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/18185331029930925967noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-15388492.post-75859524505712614272010-05-03T08:52:10.077-04:002010-05-03T08:52:10.077-04:00Roger said, I'm not sure how you can reasonabl...Roger said, <i>I'm not sure how you can reasonably argue against that. Scripture clearly commands us to "Follow the way of love and eagerly desire spiritual gifts, especially the gift of prophecy" (1 Corinthians 14:1). Therefore, it is outright rebellion against God's clear command to teach that we should not "follow the way of love" or "desire spiritual gifts&Charlie J. Rayhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/18185331029930925967noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-15388492.post-77991292125480277762010-05-03T08:37:56.660-04:002010-05-03T08:37:56.660-04:00Charlie said: Following miracles opens the door t...Charlie said: <b>Following miracles opens the door to heresy, which is not an option.</b><br /><br />Roger said: <i>Well, Sean Gerety and the Neo-Clarkians on his blog don't believe in present day miraculous gifts of the Spirit, and yet they seem to have went through the door to heresy quite easily! Honestly, I can't see any necessary connection between believing in the present day Charlie J. Rayhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/18185331029930925967noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-15388492.post-48917881927475882062010-05-03T08:30:06.587-04:002010-05-03T08:30:06.587-04:00BTW, show me your miracles and we will test them b...BTW, show me your miracles and we will test them by Scripture. If you have one?<br /><br />Simply because you "claim" a miracle in no way obligates "me" to accept your doctrine. (1 John 4:1-4; 2 Timothy 2:15; 2 Timothy 3:15-17; 2 Peter 1:19-21).<br /><br />Roger, please don't assume I have not been through all these arguments before. I have and I have found them more Charlie J. Rayhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/18185331029930925967noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-15388492.post-33810969060107418942010-05-03T08:25:44.407-04:002010-05-03T08:25:44.407-04:00Roger said, Show me the Bible and I'll show yo...Roger said, <i>Show me the Bible and I'll show you a God who works miracles in and through his people during this New Covenant age. Unless I see an explicit text of Scripture or an irrefutable argument deduced from Scripture that demonstrates that God no longer works miracles, I will believe that He still works miracles in accordance with His sovereign will. Paul explicitly states that "Charlie J. Rayhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/18185331029930925967noreply@blogger.com