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Martyred for the Gospel

Martyred for the Gospel
The burning of Tharchbishop of Cant. D. Tho. Cranmer in the town dich at Oxford, with his hand first thrust into the fyre, wherwith he subscribed before. [Click on the picture to see Cranmer's last words.]

Collect of the Day

The Fifth Sunday after the Epiphany.
The Collect.

O LORD, we beseech thee to keep thy Church and household continually in thy true religion; that they who do lean only upon the hope of thy heavenly grace may evermore be defended by thy mighty power; through Jesus Christ our Lord. Amen.

Daily Bible Verse

Tuesday, May 23, 2006

Further Discussion With Father Kilian McDonnell

Dear Father McDonnell,

Labels serve to identify theological commitments. Pentecostals are pentecostals, neo-orthodox is neo-orthodox, Lutherans are Lutherans, Roman Catholics are Roman Catholics. Conservatives have certain theological commitments and liberals have others.

I would not be surprised that there are liberals within the Missouri Synod, too. However, if you are saying that the anathemas I quoted have been lifted, I would love to see the official documents from Rome on that issue. Perhaps these are available online?

Sincerely,

Charlie J. Ray, M.Div.

----- Original Message -----
From: McDonnell, Fr. Kilian
To: Charlie Ray
Sent: Monday, May 22, 2006 9:44 PM
Subject: RE: Post pentecostal/charismatic
Dear Mr. Ray: It appears to me that you discuss labels (liberal, conservative) instead of issues. The Vatican lifted the anathemas concerning justification. By the way, Missouri Synod theologians were part of the Lutheran/Catholic dialogue. Sincerely, KiIian McDonnell,osb


Dear Father McDonnell,

According to the article I just read in First Things, the anathemas have not been lifted. What has happened is that both sides have said that the anathemas from the 16th century from both churches no long apply to either church today. That flies in the face of your statement that the anathemas are no longer the official position of Rome.

  • "The American dialogue had important repercussions. An ecumenical group of Protestant and Catholic theologians in Germany in 1985 undertook a study of the condemnations issued by each church in the sixteenth century. Concluding that none of these condemnations held against the partner church today, this study proposed that the churches make binding pronouncements to the effect that those condemnations should no longer be cited as if they still held against the other church. The canons on justification in the Council of Trent and in the Lutheran Book of Concord figured prominently in this study."
  • ******
  • "...Most importantly for our present purposes, the Catholic Response raises the question whether the Lutheran positions as explained in the Joint Declaration really escape the anathemas of the Council of Trent. Without repeating the exact words of the Official Response, I can indicate some of the objections it poses regarding the first, second, fourth, and seventh of the issues I have mentioned in my summary of the Joint Declaration."
    From First Things at http://www.firstthings.com/ftissues/ft9912/articles/dulles.html


I guess that I and other conservative Protestants of the Reformed and Lutheran faith are still under the anathemas of the Council of Trent because those are precisely the views that we hold to in as much as they were also the views of the Reformers who were condemned by those same anathemas. The anathemas have NOT been lifted and you know this full well.

I'm really disappointed that you're being so disingenuous, Fr. McDonnell. Honesty would go much further in a true dialogue with those who differ with you.

Sincerely,


Charlie Ray

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