----- Original Message -----
From: Hugh McCann
Sent: Friday, August 28, 2009 3:54 PM
Subject: RE: [God's Hammer] New Comment On: John Piper and his Heretical Friends (Revised)
Could some of the confusion for Baptists also be found in this sort of language (esp. as it's misunderstood and mis-taught by sacerdotalists, FV-ers, etc.?):
WCF 27:3: The grace which is exhibited in or by the sacraments rightly used, is not conferred by any power in them; neither does the efficacy of a sacrament depend upon the piety or intention of him that does administer it: but upon the work of the Spirit, and the word of institution, which contains, together with a precept authorizing the use thereof, a promise of benefit to worthy receivers.
This could easily been read to mean that the Spirit (w/ the instituting word), inevitably makes it happen.
And here, I imagine, it gets REALLY dicey for Baptists:
WCF 28:1: Baptism is a sacrament of the New Testament, ordained by Jesus Christ, not only for the solemn admission of the party baptized into the visible Church; but also to be unto him a sign and seal of the covenant of grace, of his ingrafting into Christ, of regeneration, of remission of sins, and of his giving up unto God, through Jesus Christ, to walk in the newness of life.* Which sacrament is, by Christ's own appointment, to be continued in His Church until the end of the world.
WCF 28:6: The efficacy of Baptism is not tied to that moment of time wherein it is administered; yet, notwithstanding, by the right use of this ordinance, the grace promised is not only offered, but really exhibited, and conferred, by the Holy Ghost, to such (whether of age or infants) as that grace belongs unto, according to the counsel of God's own will, in His appointed time.
* IF he's elect, of course ("such... as that grace belongs unto").
Yours,
Hugh McCann
Q1: What is your only comfort in life and in death?
A. That I, with body and soul, both in life and in death, am not my own, but belong to my faithful Savior Jesus Christ, who with His precious blood has fully satisfied for all my sins, and delivered me from all the power of the devil; and so preserves me that without the will of my heavenly Father not a hair can fall from my head; indeed, that all things must work together for my salvation, and, therefore, by His Holy Spirit, He also assures me of eternal life, and makes me sincerely willing and ready from now on to live unto Him. {Heidelberg Catechism, Lord's Day 1}
> Date: Fri, 28 Aug 2009 19:31:34 +0000
> To: hughmc5@hotmail.com
> From: donotreply@wordpress.com
> Subject: [God's Hammer] New Comment On: John Piper and his Heretical Friends (Revised)
>
> There is a new comment on the post "John Piper and his Heretical Friends (Revised)".
> http://godshammer.wordpress.com/2009/06/23/john-piper-and-his-heretical-friends/
>
> Author: Sean Gerety
> Comment:
> <i>Sean, are not baptized children of believers in the Covenant? Are they not Christians?</i>
>
> Pat, how many times and ways do I have to say the same thing? No, God did not make any covenant with all baptized children of believers. See the WLC above. Baptized infants of believers may be Christians and may be of God's elect, but becoming a Christian is by being born again and believing the Gospel and that is a reality whether or not someone is able to profess their faith in terms that some Baptist minster would accept. P&R baptism rightly understood pictures election. Similarly for Baptists those who profess faith in the Christ and His Gospel may be Christians and may be of God's elect. You take them at their word. We take them at their parent's word.
>
> In any case, I think Charlie did a good job of explaining the P&R view that you still fail to even acknowledge much less seem to grasp.
>
> <i> So, I don't care what prominent Baptists believe. It's not what I believe, and to me, it has nothing to do with being a Baptist.</i>
>
> Then you hardly speak for Baptists.
>
> You said "teaching an age of accountability has nothing with being Baptist," but this is simply false as I've demonstrated. Further, I provided one of the central arguments why Baptists in general (you excepted) believe as they do. I admit Baptists are generally confused since, like you, they seem to believe that P&R folks baptize infants because we think baptism somehow unites infants to Christ, saves them, makes them Christians, or some other nonsense. At best it is a sign that reflects the spiritual reality, at the very least it is recognizing infants and children of believers as being part of the visible church. That doesn't mean that they are necessary part of God's chosen seed or members of the Covenant.
>
> Have you not read the WCF concerning Baptism specifically 28.5:
>
> "Although it be a great sin to contemn or neglect this ordinance, yet grace and salvation are not so inseparably annexed unto it, as that no person can be regenerated, or saved, without it; <b>or, that all that are baptized are undoubtedly regenerated.</b>"
>
> See all comments on this post here:
> http://godshammer.wordpress.com/2009/06/23/john-piper-and-his-heretical-friends/#comments
>
>
WCF 27:3: The grace which is exhibited in or by the sacraments rightly used, is not conferred by any power in them; neither does the efficacy of a sacrament depend upon the piety or intention of him that does administer it: but upon the work of the Spirit, and the word of institution, which contains, together with a precept authorizing the use thereof, a promise of benefit to worthy receivers.
This could easily been read to mean that the Spirit (w/ the instituting word), inevitably makes it happen.
And here, I imagine, it gets REALLY dicey for Baptists:
WCF 28:1: Baptism is a sacrament of the New Testament, ordained by Jesus Christ, not only for the solemn admission of the party baptized into the visible Church; but also to be unto him a sign and seal of the covenant of grace, of his ingrafting into Christ, of regeneration, of remission of sins, and of his giving up unto God, through Jesus Christ, to walk in the newness of life.* Which sacrament is, by Christ's own appointment, to be continued in His Church until the end of the world.
WCF 28:6: The efficacy of Baptism is not tied to that moment of time wherein it is administered; yet, notwithstanding, by the right use of this ordinance, the grace promised is not only offered, but really exhibited, and conferred, by the Holy Ghost, to such (whether of age or infants) as that grace belongs unto, according to the counsel of God's own will, in His appointed time.
* IF he's elect, of course ("such... as that grace belongs unto").
Yours,
Hugh McCann
Q1: What is your only comfort in life and in death?
A. That I, with body and soul, both in life and in death, am not my own, but belong to my faithful Savior Jesus Christ, who with His precious blood has fully satisfied for all my sins, and delivered me from all the power of the devil; and so preserves me that without the will of my heavenly Father not a hair can fall from my head; indeed, that all things must work together for my salvation, and, therefore, by His Holy Spirit, He also assures me of eternal life, and makes me sincerely willing and ready from now on to live unto Him. {Heidelberg Catechism, Lord's Day 1}
> Date: Fri, 28 Aug 2009 19:31:34 +0000
> To: hughmc5@hotmail.com
> From: donotreply@wordpress.com
> Subject: [God's Hammer] New Comment On: John Piper and his Heretical Friends (Revised)
>
> There is a new comment on the post "John Piper and his Heretical Friends (Revised)".
> http://godshammer.wordpress.com/2009/06/23/john-piper-and-his-heretical-friends/
>
> Author: Sean Gerety
> Comment:
> <i>Sean, are not baptized children of believers in the Covenant? Are they not Christians?</i>
>
> Pat, how many times and ways do I have to say the same thing? No, God did not make any covenant with all baptized children of believers. See the WLC above. Baptized infants of believers may be Christians and may be of God's elect, but becoming a Christian is by being born again and believing the Gospel and that is a reality whether or not someone is able to profess their faith in terms that some Baptist minster would accept. P&R baptism rightly understood pictures election. Similarly for Baptists those who profess faith in the Christ and His Gospel may be Christians and may be of God's elect. You take them at their word. We take them at their parent's word.
>
> In any case, I think Charlie did a good job of explaining the P&R view that you still fail to even acknowledge much less seem to grasp.
>
> <i> So, I don't care what prominent Baptists believe. It's not what I believe, and to me, it has nothing to do with being a Baptist.</i>
>
> Then you hardly speak for Baptists.
>
> You said "teaching an age of accountability has nothing with being Baptist," but this is simply false as I've demonstrated. Further, I provided one of the central arguments why Baptists in general (you excepted) believe as they do. I admit Baptists are generally confused since, like you, they seem to believe that P&R folks baptize infants because we think baptism somehow unites infants to Christ, saves them, makes them Christians, or some other nonsense. At best it is a sign that reflects the spiritual reality, at the very least it is recognizing infants and children of believers as being part of the visible church. That doesn't mean that they are necessary part of God's chosen seed or members of the Covenant.
>
> Have you not read the WCF concerning Baptism specifically 28.5:
>
> "Although it be a great sin to contemn or neglect this ordinance, yet grace and salvation are not so inseparably annexed unto it, as that no person can be regenerated, or saved, without it; <b>or, that all that are baptized are undoubtedly regenerated.</b>"
>
> See all comments on this post here:
> http://godshammer.wordpress.com/2009/06/23/john-piper-and-his-heretical-friends/#comments
>
>
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