Martyred for the Gospel

Martyred for the Gospel
The burning of Tharchbishop of Cant. D. Tho. Cranmer in the town dich at Oxford, with his hand first thrust into the fyre, wherwith he subscribed before. [Click on the picture to see Cranmer's last words.]

Daily Bible Verse

Monday, November 25, 2013

The Federal Vision Heresy: Analyzing the Federal Vision

In 2007 Guy Prentiss Waters and several other Presbyterian ministers and scholars gathered together to discuss and analyze the problems with the Federal Vision error in the Presbyterian Church in America.  After that conference the PCA did a study where they found that the Federal Vision to be a violation of their doctrinal standards as outlined in the Westminster Confession of Faith and the Larger and Shorter Catechism. 

Unfortunately, the PCA has completely reversed itself and at the last General Assembly gave full endorsement to the Federal Vision heresy and the teaching of Peter Leithart and several other ministers who make no attempt to hide their adherence to the Federal Vision and the Auburn Avenue theology.

I am posting a link to a series of messages hosted by Guy Prentiss called Analyzing the Federal Vision.


Gary said...

We orthodox Lutherans are THRILLED to see the rise of the "Federal Vision" in Reformed circles. However, we Lutherans have another term for it: Lutheranism!

God be praised that the Reformed are coming back to accepting "Repent and be baptized...for the forgiveness of sins" as EXACTLY what God meant and not a mistranslation by Catholic/Anglican/Lutheran translators.

Luther, Baptists, and Evangelicals

Charlie J. Ray said...

You're delighted that the PCA is now teaching justification by faith plus works? I knew you were semi-pelagian and a papist. Why not just join back with Rome?

Charlie J. Ray said...

Federal Vision, by David Engelsma.

Justification by Works The movement that calls itself the “federal vision” teaches justification by the obedience of the sinner. “The presuppositions undergirding Paul’s statement [in Romans 2:13]include the facts that the Law is is ‘obeyable,’ that truly responding to the Law (the Word) in faith does justify” (Schlissel, 260). Romans 2:13 states that “the doers of the law shall be justified.” Schlissel’s comment on the text, that the “Law is ‘obeyable,’” that truly responding to the Law (the Word) in faith does justify” (Schlissel, 260). Romans 2:13 states that “the doers of the law shall be justified.” Schlissel’s comment on the text, that the “Law is ‘obeyable,’” affirms justification by deeds of obedience to the law."

I'm amazed that Lutherans agree with Arminians and Papists. Luther would be rolling over in his grave.

I'm also amazed that Lutherans think that God is irrational. Stupid Lutherans!

Gary said...

It's interesting that you bring up Rome.

Orthodox Lutherans and Rome just initiated conversations. We are no where near a point of reunification, but we are talking. As you may know, Rome has conceded that Luther was correct on Justification by Faith, what remains to be resolved are convincing Rome to completely abandon the concept of Purgatory and to assure us that the Blessed Virgin Mary, Mother of God, will NEVER be elevated to co-redeemer.

Gary said...

On the issue of Justification by faith alone, there is one passage in the Bible that settles the "Is Baptism a part of God's act of salvation" question: Acts 2:38.

Try as they can, Baptists, Arminians and Calvinists just cannot escape the plain, simple interpretation of that passage:

If you want the forgiveness of sins and the gift of the Holy Spirit, repent and be baptized!

The plain, simple interpretation of God's Word clearly states that God forgives sins, washes away sins, and saves sinners in Baptism, not by magic baptismal water, but by the power of his Almighty, supernatural Word!

Evidence of the belief in baptismal regeneration can be found in the Early Church. Your position on this doctrine is a western European invention.

Charlie J. Ray said...

Luther would have never sacrificed justification by faith alone just to prove a point about baptism. This is how stupid Lutherans are. You think that you can work your way to heaven as long as you get baptismal regeneration? What and idiot:)

Charlie J. Ray said...

You make my case for me. Anyone stupid enough to think that Rome has moved is just stupid. The Canons of the Council of Trent have not been changed and neither have the anathemas. The only ones who have changed are stupid Lutherans. Why don't you just go back to Rome and join up with the rest of the apostates???

If Lutherans were more logical they wouldn't be going back to Rome.

Charlie J. Ray said...

How about instead of using the bait and switch fallacy that you tell me why you think justification is by faith PLUS works? That's what the Federal Vision teaches. I can only conclude that you are either ignorant of the issues involved with the FV OR you are deliberately misrepresenting the Lutheran view. No one here is doubting that Luther taught baptismal regeneration. What is at issue is whether election is defectible in God's decrees? You say it is. Luther said it isn't. I'll go with Scripture and with Luther.

It is impossible for the elect to be lost. Period. That's called salvation by grace alone. I know you don't agree with Scripture or with Luther.

Charlie J. Ray said...

Secondly, if you want your comments posted, then you'll have to respond to what I actually said instead of going off on rabbit trails and bait and switch tactics.

Declaring the end from the beginning, And from ancient times things that are not yet done, Saying,`My counsel shall stand, And I will do all My pleasure,' (Isaiah 46:10 NKJ)
All the inhabitants of the earth are reputed as nothing; He does according to His will in the army of heaven And among the inhabitants of the earth. No one can restrain His hand Or say to Him, "What have You done?" (Daniel 4:35 NKJ)
Finally, all of you be of one mind, having compassion for one another; love as brothers, be tenderhearted, be courteous; (1 Peter 3:8 NKJ)
(for the children not yet being born, nor having done any good or evil, that the purpose of God according to election might stand, not of works but of Him who calls), 12 it was said to her, "The older shall serve the younger." 13 As it is written, "Jacob I have loved, but Esau I have hated." (Romans 9:11-13 NKJ)

Gary said...

I never said that the Elect can lose their salvation. Lutherans do not believe that it is possible for the Elect to go to hell.

But we do believe that someone can believe by faith in Christ, be a true Christian, lose his faith by ongoing willful sin, and go to hell.

Contradictory, you say? No, we say, it is a paradox. God didn't give us all the details, but still expects us to believe it.

Charlie J. Ray said...

How could the Holy Spirit regenerate a reprobate person in baptism? Esau was never elect or saved. Yet Esau was circumcised.

Also, you still have another problem. You approved of the Federal Visionists just on the basis of their view of baptism. You completely ignored the fact that they teach justification by faith plus works....

And lastly, there are no paradoxes in the Bible that have no logical solutions. You have the same definition for contradiction and for paradox. There are no contradictions or errors in the Bible. None.

Charlie J. Ray said...

True Lutheranism is not liberal, nor does it teach "final justification" by works in the judgment. I have my disagreements with Lutherans. But you're not even a Lutheran. You don't rise to that level. Try reading John Montgomery Warwick.

Charlie J. Ray said...

God does give us the details. The details are revealed in Scripture in logical propositions. From the axiom of Scripture we can deduce the fact that there is both reprobation and election. God is not irrational, nor would God contradict Himself or reveal contradictory propositions in the Scriptures. Revelation is logical because God is Logic. John 1:1

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